Parshat Matot-Masei, 5773/2013 thoughts
For my previous posts on these two parshiot/weekly Torah readings, see:
"It's rather sad that a woman of the biblical era had to be protected from the right and ability of her father, or, after marriage, her husband, to prevent her from keeping her vows. But I suppose that her being excused from keeping a vow was better than being held responsible for actions that she was not allowed to take. Apparently, the only females of any age who were considered independent agents free to make and carry out their own decisions were widows and divorcees. (See Numbers, chapter 30, verses 2-17.)"
"While it's true, and to the credit of biblical law, that the land of the deceased father who had no sons became the property of his daughters, it could also be argued that the daughters themselves became the "property" of their father's tribe. See Numbers, chapter 36.) You win some, you lose some."
"An ir miklat/city of refuge was, in effect, a giant prison serving to protect the accidental killer from the functional equivalent of a lynching."
Conservadox has an interesting theory about Moshe's behavior in recent parshiot.
DovBear's guest poster Y. Bloch is scandalized by a line from Matot.
In unrelated news, the discussion regarding the use of a dishwasher for both meat and dairy dishes in a kosher kitchen is still in progress in the comments to this post. (Still true July 5th.)
"It's rather sad that a woman of the biblical era had to be protected from the right and ability of her father, or, after marriage, her husband, to prevent her from keeping her vows. But I suppose that her being excused from keeping a vow was better than being held responsible for actions that she was not allowed to take. Apparently, the only females of any age who were considered independent agents free to make and carry out their own decisions were widows and divorcees. (See Numbers, chapter 30, verses 2-17.)"
"While it's true, and to the credit of biblical law, that the land of the deceased father who had no sons became the property of his daughters, it could also be argued that the daughters themselves became the "property" of their father's tribe. See Numbers, chapter 36.) You win some, you lose some."
"An ir miklat/city of refuge was, in effect, a giant prison serving to protect the accidental killer from the functional equivalent of a lynching."
Conservadox has an interesting theory about Moshe's behavior in recent parshiot.
DovBear's guest poster Y. Bloch is scandalized by a line from Matot.
In unrelated news, the discussion regarding the use of a dishwasher for both meat and dairy dishes in a kosher kitchen is still in progress in the comments to this post. (Still true July 5th.)
posted by Shira Salamone at 1:36 PM
13 Comments:
Heard at work: Before agreeing to move in, the single and female potential roommate of a co-worker who eats Chalav Stam has to ask her father for permission to give up eating Chalav Yisrael only. To be honest, when I heard the story, I was thoroughly offended--a grown woman needs her daddy's permission to make a decision?! Sigh--in some Orthodox circles, the rules of Matot still apply. :(
Why do you care? It's her choice. There are plenty of kids who would move in and not say anything, she chooses to follow the Torah laws about such things. It's her choice. That's actually a mature decision -- recognizing that she wants to do something and taking the legal steps to effect that change. You so clearly hate anything that you view -- mistakenly -- as antithetical to your feminist point of view that you can't recognize that she's choosing to live this way. Why is that invalid?
Anon., with due respect, I disagree that it's her choice. From my perspective, she's ceding her choice to her father, and I don't see anything mature about an adult asking his or her father to make his or her decision for him or her, which is my point. I'm afraid we'll simply have to agree to disagree.
She's not asking permission. She's asking him to nullify her vow (doing something continually is akin to a vow). She's making the choice to live in accordance with halakha. That's a choice.
I don't know why you care. You despise the Orthodox. You despise the Conservatives who aren't exactly at your level of observance and egalitarianism. You must be a very unhappy person being so judgmental.
From my perspective, it isn't *her* vow, it's her father's. It's possible, though, that I'm missing something regarding a point of halachah/Jewish religious law: Would the need to ask one's father to nullify one's vow apply equally to an adult *son*? In other words, if the two potential roommates were both male, would the Chalav Yisrael guy still need permission to switch to Chalav Stam?
No, it doesn't. But the point you are missing is that it is still HER choice as to how to live her life. She could chuck it all, bend the rules, or live within the confines of halakha. That's her choice to make. ONce you make that choice, certain things follow, but the initial choice is her's.
You don't like the fact that the Torah imposes different rules based on sex. Too bad. Pick a different religion. Your beef is with the Torah. And quite frankly, when you're long gone from this earth, people will still be following the Torah and not Shira Salamone.
"You don't like the fact that the Torah imposes different rules based on sex."
You're right--I don't like it. But now you've piqued my curiosity--I'm like to know whether there are other halachically-valid opinions regarding an adult female's freedom to make her own halachic decisions. You know the old saying--"Two Jews, three opinions." :) I wonder whether the one you cite is the only one.
Jeez. You don't get it. Adult women have the freedom to make their own halachic decisions. This is an issue of annulling a vow. It's not simply a question of halacha. It's a special category, it's not like "hey, do I need two sets of glasses."
That's exactly why I said that "in some Orthodox circles, the rules of Matot still apply"--your opinion is that an adult female still needs her father's (or husband's) permission to make, or, in this case, break, a vow.
Sorry Shira, this is rampant anti-semitism on your part.
A grown woman, an adult, is making a change in her life is talking to her father about it. I have no idea the tone of the conversation, but it went one of two ways:
1. Daddy, I know we've kept Chalav Yisrael, but I'm thinking of rooming with someone who eats Chalav Stam, what do you think.
2. Dad, I'm moving in with a roommate that has a Chalav Stam kitchen, I need you to renounce my vow for me, can you take care of that, thanks?
You've spun this as some tortured woman being imprissoned nonsense, but it's an adult woman, making a change in her religious practices, and talking to her father about it. I'm not sure WHY you object to her talking to her father, perhaps you should explain to her why talking to your parents as an adult is somehow horrible....
But, in no scenario is she "getting permission" - she's either consulting her father (plenty of single people consult their parents on tons of things), or she's making a change and needs him to do something... no different then updating the mailing address on her Costco card if she were on her parents account.
The problem is you. You don't consider Chalav Yisrael important, the co-worker may or may not, the father may or may not, but I don't see why the co-worker can't discuss it with her father...
I mean, we're talking about a "grown woman" finding a roommate, not exactly a paragon of independence here.
"You don't consider Chalav Yisrael important . . . "
Okay, Miami Al, *that* part is true. The Conservative Rabbinical Assembly has ruled that all U.S.-made cheese is kosher. It was only about a decade ago that we started buying hechshered cheese exclusively, and we made the switch just because it seemed easy enough, since we live in New York City.
Why you consider my perspective anti-semitic, I honestly don't understand. We've already established that a *man* wouldn't need to discuss the switch with his father. (I would appreciate it if someone would explain the procedure for a male who wants to nullify a vow--there are many details of halachah/Jewish religious law that I'm still learning.) In addition, I'd like to make note of the fact that all of us, myself included, have politely ignored the proverbial "elephant in the room," which is the fact that the young lady isn't consulting her *parents,* she's consulting her *father*--a mother doesn't seem to enter into a daughter's discussion regarding nullifying a vow at all. I'm just trying to point out that, in (some segments of?) the Orthodox world, Judaism is still a patriarchal religion in some ways, reflecting Parshat Matot's rules on women's vows. That doesn't mean I'm not going to fast on Tisha B'Av--I'm still a practicing Jew, though my practice may not be sufficient from your perspective. I find your accusation of anti-semitism quite upsetting.
As an outsider to Orthodox Judaism you have taken to a public forum to bash it's practices as outdated and sexist.
All segments of Orthodox Judaism (and I presume Conservative as well) require a Vow to by nullified according to the Biblical procedure. It is possible tat Conservative has done some hand waiving about gender, but I'd guess that since this isn't a political hot-button, they did it smarter... acknowledge that procedure for nullifying a vow, but don't require it for anything, so nothing requires it.
Beyond that, there is not a single segment of Judaism that considers itself Halachic that will rule the way you want.
If a woman needs a vow annulled and her father will not do so (much more of a problem for BTs than your co-worker who called her father who knew what she was talking about), she could seek a Rabbi to find a way to rule that the vow wasn't ever properly adopted or otherwise invalidate the vow, since it can't be annulled.
Newsflash, I can't make my newborn child Jewish, only the mother can.
Your coworker can't annul her vow, her father can.
She could have chatted with her mother and asked her to have her father annul it for her.
Beyond which, it is NONE OF YOUR FREAKING BUSINESS how this woman and her father practice their own religion, and your bashing it, AS AN OUTSIDER, and INSULTING their religion, is bigoted.
You're not reading what everyone is saying, and instead throwing up straw men and generally being insulting and argumentative.
It was explained to you by Anonymous at 11:37.
"She's not asking permission. She's asking him to nullify her vow (doing something continually is akin to a vow). She's making the choice to live in accordance with halakha. That's a choice. "
She made two choices here: one stop keeping Chalav Yisrael, two, follow the opinion that this is a vow she needs to annul. Based upon those TWO choices, the procedure is "Dad says X," which she requested via a phone call.
That fact that you don't like the procedure doesn't change the fact that it IS the procedure, but it was her choice.
I suppose her father could refuse to help his daughter, but if they have a good relationship, that seems like a stupid thing to poison it over.
She doesn't need his permission, she has asked him to do something for her.
That fact that you can't see the distinction means either you can't read, can't acknowledge your mistake, or are being argumentative out of your hatred of Torah law, hence anti-semitism.
I've never judged your religious observance negatively, so stop with the petty straw man arguments.
"All segments of Orthodox Judaism (and I presume Conservative as well) require a Vow to by nullified according to the Biblical procedure. It is possible tat Conservative has done some hand waiving about gender, but I'd guess that since this isn't a political hot-button, they did it smarter... acknowledge that procedure for nullifying a vow, but don't require it for anything, so nothing requires it."
I will readily admit that I am completely ignorant on the issue of vows, both regarding what's considered a vow and how one would go about having a vow nullified. I have no clue what the Conservative rabbinate says on the matter.
"Beyond which, it is NONE OF YOUR FREAKING BUSINESS how this woman and her father practice their own religion, and your bashing it, AS AN OUTSIDER, and INSULTING their religion, is bigoted."
I certainly didn't intend to be insulting, but merely to state my perspective. That said, I am sorry for any offense that I have caused.
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